Suggestion: Risk more Era-Inaccurate PVP Diversity

Discussion in 'T2A Discussion' started by Ramadeon, Jan 2, 2018.

?

should the pvp be more viable in terms of other possible templates?

  1. yes, there should be more pvp playstyles viable (fullmages, dexxers etc.)

    1 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. no, pvp should always be done only with a hally and corp por

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. other (please post your opinion)

    2 vote(s)
    66.7%
  1. Ramadeon

    Ramadeon Newbie

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    hello guys,

    i am a pvp veteran since 1998 and just joined the game here. happy to see a new t2a oriented shard launched and i wish you guys best luck that the shard will be a success. :) i opened this thread to discuss the topic of pvp template viablity with you, since i think it could compliment this shard heavily if there would be more pvp templates supported.

    but lets first start with the history check to be on the same page:
    the pvp of the t2a era - as far as i remember it from the old days - was mainly focused on exciting duels or teamfights between hallymages. the characteristic combination of instahit and the ability to heal through poison made it necessary to work out a hallymage or a macemage to participate in competitive pvp. while that was very challenging and required good timing skills, other pvp templates where de facto nonexistant: dexxers had no special blows and were useless in competetive pvp, puremages couldnt reach the effectiveness of tankmages too since their damage output was not high enough to kill somebody that could easily heal through poison.

    in the following era, the pvp was changed drastically to introduce more pvp template viability like parablowing dexmonkeys, stunblowing scribe-puremages and many more. skills became viable and made template options more diverse. since also the instahit was removed, the hallymage-or-OOoooOOo paradigm faded. while the new template options were liked by most players, some players disliked the removal of instahit in this era.

    so far for the history. imo the question for the future should now be:
    why should it not be possible to keep the highly popular and classic pvp feeling of hallymages/instahit/healthroughpoison WHILE other pvp templates and skills could be designed efficiently too? can't there be a scenario imaginable where player one plays the classical t2a instahit hallymage while his opponent player two plays a nox-stun mage? i think it is and it is easier to do then you might expect!

    skills that should become pvp relevant for a viable pvp would be:
    poisoning
    - should add higher nox levels combined with magery and increased nox chance when casting (nox and noxfield)
    scribe - should add spell damage and better defensive spell efficiency (maybe 15%)
    anat - should allow stun punch for wrestling & weapon blows (weapon blow chance could relate to dex to "reserve" those for dexxer templates and keep them away from already overpowered tanks)
    armslore - should allow disarm punch
    alchemy - should increase pot efficiency
    lumberjacking - should add damage to axes (maybe 15%, 10% already realized here)

    alone with those six skills there would be so many pvp viability possible: various puremage templates (healstun, scribenox, alchstun etc.), pure dexxer templates and of course the very important disarm thief. :) all those templates are fun to play and could be integrated in the experience to play a better uo.

    the interesting shard design i found here is already a mixture between good custom elements and the t2a era. so the real era-accuracy-nazi player will dislike era-inaccuracies like context menus, fancy pixel-hues, custom content and bank safe zones anyway and will hardly be catched with the era-rebuild argument. but even with the described change ideas, the core emulation experience would still remain t2a: as long instahit and heal through poison is in place, the classical hally mage will always be the state of the art template and the expected t2a experience of such a player will not be disturbed. but those other templates could be played in coexistence then and enrich the pvp scene. therefore more players could find to the shard because they can play their beloved pvp playstyle and are not forced into one specific pvp scenario which maybe goes boring after a while.

    so i think it would definitly be worth to make pvp viable. yes, it would take some balancing, but its manageable and it will create great value for sure. if you made it through the wall of text (sorry for that ;)), i would like to hear your thoughts.

    cheers and happy new year y'all,
    ramadeon
     
  2. Punkte

    Punkte Administrator Community Manager Developer

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    Thank you for the very well thought out and articulated post, these are great to see =].

    I like a lot of your ideas, we would just have to get some of the player-base on board with some of them.
    poisoning - I believe this already does happen
    scribe - Scribe currently adds more damage absorbed with reactive armor, I would be OK with adding a bit more spell damage to it as well.
    anat - This would have to be something that the community at large votes on as its a pretty large change, but I would actually be down for that.
    armslore - This would have to be something that the community at large votes on as its a pretty large change, but I would actually be down for that.
    alchemy - already in affect.
    lumberjacking - if the 10% does not do a decent job, we can always revisit.
     
  3. Ping-Pong

    Ping-Pong Newbie

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    Anything BUT stun mages.
    All of the other items listed looks great.
     
  4. Bacacay

    Bacacay Newbie

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    Just a few points for the sake of arguement.

    1. As it stands, the pvp here is more custom IPY-style than it is old-school t2a, and given we already have defensive wrestle and lumberjack bonus, which is quite strange for a t2a server, I suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to consider some more pvp changes. That being said however, for one thing it would be strange to keep the "t2a" moniker if the pvp was changed more and more.
    2. I've seen a few servers that have done this and come and gone. What tends to happen is that tank mages still generally win 1v1s, with the occasional eval dexxer in the mix. Group dynamics tended to stay the same for small groups, with maybe some groups rolling a stun mage. From what I saw people with nox templates were more of an annoyance that anything if you were properly kitting with pots, and even without them not particularly dangerous 1v1. Eval dexxers are already more viable with anat-eval wrestling here as it stands anyway. Even without these changes a med dexxer with 30-45 int would still basically be the best pit template if fairly boring to play. Still, I don't see why it can hurt to experiment. But I think dexxers being "weak" in the era is completely subjective and depends on the server. On many instahit servers the run of the mill dexxer would kill you 9 outta 10 times in a pit, assuming all pots. They tend to seem weak here because spell damage tends to spike high and we have weapon variation. A guy that knows how to handle magery on a dexxer should still do fine however. I think special moves just change the pvp dynamic too much out of the era.
    3. I gotta say with the state of pvp here currently I don't think stun mages are a good idea. Spell damage still spikes so high that essentially it would take a stun mage a stun and 60 mana to kill you here if you can't do anything to counter it. Precast explosion and stun sounds like a bad day.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  5. Ramadeon

    Ramadeon Newbie

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    hey!
    thanks for your thoughts so far and nice to hear that you are generally open for changes punkte. if there is help needed i could volounteer as a pvp tester to find out which skillrelated mechanics are in place right now.

    some points to the above written by bacacay:

    agree, it may be that a dexxer with a supremly vanq katana might fuck a tank up in a dexxer friendly special ruleset 8x8-pit scenario. but that is not the scenario that really counts. if you want to compare the quality of templates it has to be in open field fights, everything allowed. this is where guildfights, militia, pking, etc. will happen. it is perfectly fine that a specific template plays a better role in pit, group, or solo etc., but the overall justification of a template should be clearly visible and feelable. otherwise you will not see those toons in pvp.

    yes, that might be associated more with uor-era. but given the fact that the shard obviously walks a custom way in many aspects, i doubt that this would be a problem. i guess, as long the characteristic instahit hallymage will work out fine (and i am pretty sure it still will be the best choice for nearly all scenarios), t2a fans should not be disappointed, don't you think? in the discord chat somebody mentioned the idea to rename the shard to something like t2a/uor which would probably be a more fitting term regarding all the past t2a publish content already released. you could maybe also call it simply "classic".

    regarding the concerns about stun mages: in nearly all servers where those were used, the uor setting was in place. that means no instahit and no heal through poison. in those scenarios the class was very strong. but in this shards scenario we still will have instahit and heal trough poison, reducing the efficiency of puremages in general very hard. especially noxmages will have only a slight advantage if you simply can heal through it. the only advantage of a stunmage over a hallymage would might be in a well experienced and coordinated team. but also there the chance to stun is normally still very low (50% to hit the opponent, 50% to succeed the stun = 25% success chance). for that 25% chance you compromise the mighty hally with instahit and a hell of damage output... in the end those changes most likely will not change the status quo, but it might add some possible variants to the fights. and yes, the spelldamage might be high ranged here, but this will kill you in the same manner when getting an explo stun explo ebolt combo than a when receiving an explo hally ebolt combo (given the fact that you forgot your pots at home :)).

    the higher and wide-ranged the damages, the quicker and crazier the pvp. i personally like it, but thats another topic i dont see primarily connected to specific templates. if against expectations the stun mage would turn out as too mighty and disturb the hallymage feel too much, it still can be easily gimped by a slightly reduced stun time. so a bit of finetuning of course would be needed to do.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  6. Bacacay

    Bacacay Newbie

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    The point I was making there is mostly to those that claim that dexxers are completely useless in an era without special hits. It's less of a "special ruleset" thing and more an observation that if a mage can't make distance with a dexxer 1v1 their chances to come out on top in the exchange plummet.

    The issue with going closer and closer to UOR in terms of mechanics in that the balance starts getting screwy. As it stands the normal balance here is still needing to be patched a little, but that's incoming soon. The underlying issue is not that heal through poison makes playing a pure mage harder, it's more to do that they will be disadvantaged against a mage opponent with instahit. Hell, I saw this first hand on a UOR server that added instahit. And for that matter dexxers do actually get a big boost from being able to switch weapons on the fly with no downtime if they switch from slow to fast. IMO, the IPY way of doing things is not instakill halberd combos, but skillful interruption of heals with both spells and weapon hits ,and followup as opposed to the UOR idea of poison lock. You shouldn't need poison to prevent your opponent from healing efficiently. As for the spell damage here, the problem with it is that it tends to spike in the high ranges too often for what magic resist should be for.

    I don't think the pvp here will suddenly be better if you can gank people with a stun mage in your group, or 1v1 with a simple precast explosion stun ebolt ebolt. Chances are they will either be dead or redlined and it would be an easy victory to follow up with harm lightning or ebolt depending on how they respond. This just goes against what t2a pvp is supposed to be about in my book. Template diversity is all well and good, but I think it's important that not only is the current system as polished as possible first, but the balance is considered based on what the server currently is and how different mechanics would effect it, as opposed to just what past shards have done.

    As for t2a needing more "variation" to fights, I don't really get this one. For me every opponent I fight is a variation. Not everyone plays a tank mage the same exact way or with the same skill level. Hell, even the differences between newbie dexxers and decked out expert dexxers are there, not just in template but in playstyle. For me this era has always been about learning your own limits and trying to surpass them, not considering the "limited" templates as limits. There's a reason why people always stress the importance of practice when it comes to tank mage versus tank mage. It's pretty wild how much variation there is out there between skill levels and the fun of trying to beat someone that has beat you over and over can't be....beat. lol. Puns are OP.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  7. Punkte

    Punkte Administrator Community Manager Developer

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    We're not going to add special abilities to weapons in general, I just meant more of a few of the specific ones, but yea. I still want it to have a large T2A influence. I'm ok with changing things up, but I'd rather do it differently then starting basically turning the server into UOR.

    I'm sure there's a lot of other ways we can do things to strike a balance.
     
  8. a salt rifle

    a salt rifle Newbie

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    I haven't done enough pvp to comment on most of this, but would say I would prefer NOT to get stunned by anything on a T2A era server.
     

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